Normal Game Thread Cow's Assassin Game (Canceled)

Just giving a heads up that I'm going to be MIA for today and tomorrow. I'll pop in if and when I can, but I expect my activity to be rather low. Should be normal after that.

 

@Rotaretilbo how long u gonna stalk baby

 

This is the post I was looking at:

Going by Occam's Razor (the simplest explanation is most accurate) It looks to me like Nigen has an ignorance to what Scum is capable of regarding OGC. There are Two ways to look at this post:
1.) Nigen was ignorant to the fact that Town AND Mafia both can communicate out of game. The way this is stated, it implies that Nigen doesn't know if OGC is limited to Scum only or if Town is able to do it as well. This would mean it was a Town Slip due to the fact they needed clarification on if Town could use OGC as well.
2.) They did it for Town cred.

Like I said, using Occam's Razor, the simplest explanation is that the comment was authentic and thereby it clears Nigen from being Scum (Though I suppose they could still be 3P).

 

Hmm, don't think I've seen a game where Night actions are sent during the day and then resolved immediately so that the Night phase is skipped. It's an interesting idea, but it means that actions are made without knowing the lynch. I'm not sure how I feel about that, yet. Certainly interesting, to say the least. And a decent compromise between Night 0 starts and Day 1 starts. Everyone gets to play for starters, but kills and investigations and the like aren't informed by the lynch.

Anyway, enough focusing on philosophy. Instead, let's focus on philosophy. I'd like to propose that we all declare whether we investigate innocent or guilty to a sane Cop investigation (that is, a Cop whose results are not tampered with by default). If you are Town, you investigate innocent, unless you are a Miller (or whatever passes for the equivalent for the host; terms are not as universal as I'd like them to be). If you are Scum, you investigate guilty (unless you are a Ghost, or Godfather, or again whatever term means that for the host). If you are Indie...you should probably ask the host, because by default that varies host-to-host.

Now, I know what you're all thinking. "But Rot, Scum can just lie!" Well of course they can. I don't know why this always gets brought up, as if I'd be suggesting a strategy that was going to immediately win us the game on Day 1. They're expected to. But you see, hypothetical strawman, that is the trap. Sort of. See, one of the most damning pieces of evidence you can have against a player is catching them in a lie. And the earlier we force Scum to lie, the less suited to their environment that lie will be. That is to say, if a Cop on Day 4 says "by the way, I have a guilty on soandso" and soandso goes "oh, I'm a Miller, sorry everyone," the weight of the investigation is lessened, because Millers are a real thing that sometimes exist in games to make Cops less reliable. But, if soandso said "I investigate innocent" on Day 1 and then, our lovely Cop says on Day 4 "by theway, I have a guilty on soandso," that potential defense is gone, and the lynch is, while not absolute, far stronger. In this way, we are removing a fairly standard defense that Scum can employ when subject to a guilty investigation.

"But wait!" I can already hear you cry from having to explain this strategy over and over, "What if they just claim guilty from the start?" This is possible, but not for all Scum. Generally speaking, a game is not going to contain more than 1 Miller, and maybe 2 Indie (if they investigate guilty for the host). So, even if 1 Scum preempts the Cop by claiming guilty on Day 1, not all of the Scum can do this; there's a threshold after which you start eyeing the growing group of guilties and go "ya, some of them are definitely full of shit." And, what does Scum really gain by claiming guilty right at the start? Well, they won't ever be investigated by a Cop, but that's because, for all intents and purposes, they've effectively already been investigated by a Cop. Millers (and possibly claimed Indies) are always treated with high suspicion, and naturally draw high levels of suspicion. Indeed, Scum need to consider whether the extra scrutiny is worth it, since there's no guarantee they'd be investigated by a Cop in the first place, or that there even is necessarily a Cop! But choose carefully, they must, because if they are, it's lights out for them. So 1 Scum might not set themself up to be caught in a lie later, but they'd done so at the expense of increased scrutiny, which is still a win for Town in my book. And, in some cases, this can generate effective Cop guilties in a game without a Cop (which are even more damning than usual, because putting a Miller into a game with no Cop is fairly bastard).

"Aha!" you declare, being the strawman against which I present this strategy and therefore always believing yourself to have bested me despite always saying exactly what I am prepared to counter, "But what about real Millers (and possible Indies)?" And that's another benefit. See, when a player claims to investigate guilty, the Cop has no reason to investigate them; it's a tautology of sorts. If soandso claims to investigate guilty, then he'll return guilty whether he's Town/Indie or Scum, so there's no reason to waste an investigation on him. Which means that, by having guilties come forward, we potentially lower the pool of players the Cop needs to be using investigations on. For our purposes, every claimed guilty is a free Cop investigation.

So, to summarize, I think we should all announce how we investigate, because it cannot harm the Town in any meaningful way, offers several latent, risk-free benefits, and also gives us something to post about while we're all getting used to one another. I'll start, because it can't hurt us anyway, even if you guys disagree with the strategy for some reason in the long run.

I investigate innocent.

 

Eh, that doesn't really follow. Ningen could be Scum, and still wouldn't necessarily know if Town could communicate via OGC. And it would be just as important to know as Scum, because Scum may need to communicate with non-Scum outside the game to maintain their cover as not Scum. It's not information either Town or Scum would necessarily intrinsically have, so it's not really alignment indicative.

 

Rot

(kys)

I investigate Innocent

 

@Rotaretilbo what do you reckon ration here to be
since prolly wont fit in with normal standards

 

that wall is the flavour right

 

I mean, 15 players, so I'd generally guess something like 11v4 or maybe 10v5, depending on power distribution, and assuming a single Anti-Town faction. Factoring for a secondary Anti-Town faction, I'd probably shift to something like 9v3v3 or 9v4v1, again with variation for power distribution. But that's based on my own experiences, and I can't say with any kind of certainty that those kinds of ratios will translate properly into this manner of game, or that the host would use them even if they did.

 

No but are you Innocent?

 

Hmm9-6 might be too much
Tho 11-4, 10-5 overall might be it.

If there is any survivor come out day 1

 

You know, with how often my posts are characterized as walls, I sometimes wonder if anyone's actually seen a wall before. I think my posts would be terrible at blocking wind or precipitation, for example, and even worse at heat retention. I certainly wouldn't build a shelter from my posts.

A wall of text looks like this:



Notice the absence of line breaks or punctuation in the example. That's because a proper wall needs to be structurally sound top to bottom with no holes to prevent wind and rain and frost from flowing right through. There's something about not being able to register where one thought ends and another begins which makes reading this overwhelming.

My posts, on the other hand, are broken into paragraphs, and the sentences are clearly broken up with punctuation, all to allow for easier reading. Indeed, the only barrier is the length of the post, overall. But considering that it's designed for ease of reading, and the average fluent speaker reads English at about 200 words per minute, my post should only take about 4.5 minutes to read. Assuming a semi-fluent speaker, it would instead take probably 9 minutes to read. In the grand scheme of things, that's not asking much of your time for this wholly text-based game you've signed up to play which hinges around discussion.

 

I am familiar with leaving seer cover. This is a bit different than that tho. Traditionally, this is used in a game where there is an innocent peek the cop has on N0. Then players (both Town and Scum alike) leave cover for the Cop each day by giving their results. Town typically (but not always) give innocent peeks on their Town reads while the real cop is free to out their results without fear of being NKed N1. This way if Cop comes out with a guilty (or anyone really comes out with a guilty) the rest of Town is free to give guilty checks as well. Scum then would try and also play the seer cover game by leaving peeks themselves. They can try and clear their Scum buddies this way. IDK what is stopping Scum from doing that in this game. I also don't understand why we would choose if we are giving innocent or guilty results only. This traps the Cop into having to only give one kind of result Which greatly diminishes the Cops effectiveness to give both clears and confirms. If they choose innocent and they get a guilty this gives them away as Cop immediately. IF we were going to implement your suggested strategy, we should do so with the traditional way to do it IMO. Scum has no incentive to choose guilty as their results as as such, since they already prolly know most peoples alignment, they can continue to clear Town and Mafia alike. That said, This type of playing is usually done among circles of players who already know how this way of playing works quite well. Implementing this could spell disaster for Town if it isn't used right. That is why I am opposed to using this method.

The key thing here is that this method is usually only used in a cop only game, meaning near mountainous with just a cop with a N0 clear peek added to the game. These games are designed almost entirely around the Cop player in the game. The problem here is that there are many other roles that may exist in this game so its unrealistic to expect Town with another PR to act as a Cop this game for the obvious reason that a Town PR of another kind immediately cannot act as Cop as soon as they claim. We don't know how many PRs are in this game or what they are so it seems quite confounded to implement this strategy.

What is your counter argument to this?

The key factor you are missing here is that Nigen was asking for clarification on whether Town could use OGC or not. If they were Scum and saying this it would be illogical to make the assumption that only Scum can use OGC, which is what Nigen was asking about. By asking for clarification from the mod on whether Town can use OGC or not implies that Nigen doesn't want to do anything to get themselves in trouble as Town.

 

Autist please. Tho yea people those arent walls.
And this is game of reading and its time to level up /o/

 

9:6 def too much, even 11:4 is pushing it if we are coming from a strictly numbers standpoint. The general rule is however many group Scum there are, that is how many mislynches Town has. This is accounting for PRs in the game. That said, I have no idea how this game is balanced and can't say much about that because I have very little site meta and zero mod meta when it comes to balance in these games on this site. The last game (Elsword) was fairly balanced from a numbers perspective. In a 15 player game, I might expect there to be a traitor in the game considering 3:12 is in Town's favor and 4:11 is in Scum's favor regarding group Scum. It could be 4:11 with an indi and 3 group Scum in the game if its balanced well, but its complete WIFOM at this point.